I guess that makes you an expert then. Posted by: David October 04, at PM. For one thing I have spoken to people who were there, and also read widely on the period. What's more it's a fair and sound inference from the known facts, that the subject was NOT publicised, was treated as a state secret with commands of concealment even at the top level, eg by Himmler and Bormann, and the extermination was carried out in locations far from most Germans, in other countries' territory mostly. Also there was a special effort and operation to later remove traces, and for example the 'Reinhardt' camps were closed before even the Allies with their copious intelligence sources far beyond those available to most Germans knew much about them.
The statement of Longerich you quote is on the face of it nonsense, if by widespeard is meant a majority or anything like it, I previously gave you the example of Helmut Schmidt who claims not to have known despite multiple points of proximity to the issue, and I know others who were no better informed. I will read Longerich when I can but I am not impressed by attempts to indict the whole people on account of exceptional cases, Der Spiegel once made the ludicrous claim that because one public servant with some access to state secrets etc wrote in his diary of his partial knowledge of the matter that therefore somehow anyone could have known if they had wanted to.
If you have the book handy why not quote some convincing evidence if there is any ie of general knowledge rather than limited hearsay rather than merely use it as a clublike appeal to authority to support a claim that does not stand to reason on its own merits? And again, de Zayas is indeed a legitimate historian in his area, though I have not read his latest book. You seem to have a bias against the idea that many Germans could have been innocent of complicity in the Holocaust let alone themselves victims of crimes against humanity de Zayas' main area of work which many most certainly were, even by the Nuremberg principles and Atlantic Charter promulgated by the Allies.
One does not need to be right wing to accept that these are legitimate facts borne out by copious evidence. Have you actually read de Zayas? Or do you dismiss him simply because he apparently goes against your preconceived views? Posted by: Steve October 05, at AM.
I also note that in your review here you mention that "the details were often obscured" and "Bits and fragments of the truth came out, but few had a picture of magnitude of the crime. Not all soldiers who witnessed a likely large majority based on the numbers involved reported, and most witnessed a single incident at most. Only select security units participated on a regular basis. The businessman was in a relatively privileged position and still got 'the details' wrong, thus was dealing with rumor rather than factual knwoledge.
The same ones who were mostly the victims of bombing etc. This is an important topic and not one to be treated loosely or sloppily, especially when making moral judgements as to guilt etc, and from a privileged position of safety and knowledge in the 21st century.
Only those who can be shown to have known real and verified information can be rightly accused of it, unconfirmed rumor and hearsay are something else, in the dangerous circumstances especially. And the complete ignorance of many as to mass murder must also be acknowledged. The tendency to say 'they knew and are therefore guilty' without proper qualification is unsound, unfair and unjust. By this 'Not all soldiers who witnessed a likely large majority based on the numbers involved reported' I meant that in fact the large majority of soldiers witnessed no mass shootings of Jews at all, of many millions on campaign, most were never at the locations of the shootings, and were either fighting at the front or on leave at home if not dead wounded or captured, well over 10 million by the end.
And lastly, many individual mass shootings were concealed as 'anti-partisan' reprisals etc even in internal documents, and did not necessarily confirm to a one off witness that a general program of ethnic extermination was underway. Some or even many may have inferred it, but the actual official fact was again a state secret discussed 'openly' in closed conference only for the most part, and even then with some obfuscation.
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Your hero DeZayas is not taken seriously in Germany by any respected historians - not after he relied on Nazi propaganda sources in his book "Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle". However, DeZayas is admired by Holocaust Deniers. Here is something from the NY Daily News last month:. But he is a hero to them. One of his key themes is that hardly any Germans knew what was happening to their Jewish compatriots.
Responsibility for the Holocaust | Military Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia
Posted by: David October 05, at AM. Who said he's my hero? I just said his work on the expulsions was legitimate, and it is, try reading it first before dismissing it out of hand. You're the one who attacked him from the start.
German-American Discourse on Politics and Culture
According to the Wiki entry on his Wehrmacht Untersuchungsstelle book, it seems to be a legitimate treatment of their extant files and procedures the point of the book also, with positive reviews from writers such as Benjamin B. And the files apparently concern mainly real atrocities by the Soviets et al such as Katyn, as well as some German war crimes.
Between , the project involved the interviews of hundreds of witnesses who had given testimony before the German military judges in , and more than a hundred of the judges who had been involved in the investigations. Dietrich Rauschning subsequently a judge in the Human Rights Chamber of Bosnia and Herzegovina under the Dayton Accords wrote about the close supervision of the project by the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft and the experts of the five principal archives where the research was conducted, and about the distance and care taken by de Zayas and the members of his team in evaluating the records of the Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle.
Nor did I say hardly any Germans knew what was happening to the Jews at all , but that most other than those directly involved did not know they were being killed, from late , least of all systematically. Probably not yet", and the official policy until late with many renewed efforts and proposals was expulsion not extermination. Browning cites Goebbels in March still talking in such terms, noting that even he was not fully aware until later of the change a Nazi bigwig and Minister no less.
He also concludes that "the practice of Nazi Jewish policy until does not support the thesis of a long-held fixed intention to murder the European Jews", and that many in the bureaucracy were not fully informed if at all. My and presumably de Zayas' arguments are founded on solid facts in agreement with arguments and conclusions by respected scholars, if not always identical with them.
If the best you can do in response is to associate it with 'Holocaust denial', a common and despicable smear tactic not that that was necessarily your intention , then you have no argument of worth at all. Posted by: Steve October 07, at AM. Also your link mentions Goldhagen, who has been excoriated by various respected scholars for his shoddy work, far more than de Zayas.
I am reading some studies by the historian DIeter Pohl who has researched this topis thoroughly. Check back soon for a review.
Posted by: David October 07, at AM. I can read German and will read the piece in Die Zeit later, but it would have to be balanced against the positive reviews I cited. Regarding the use by de Zayas of 'Nazi sources', that in itself does not seem illegitimate given the topic an analysis of those sources , though the degree to which the sources in question can be described as 'Nazi' is open to question, apparently they were standard Wehrmacht legal staff etc, which would mean part but not entirely 'Nazi'.
The footnote to the quote you give refers to a single book without further information.
Responsibility for the Holocaust
It may just be that it is nevertheless true, in a vague way, ie a majority or so if asked to give a free opinion on the matter may have surmised as much or something along the lines though your original postwar poll mentioned rather less , from some point, though there's no way to know, but that is still a far cry from actual firm knowledge. It also has to be considered that enemy crimes were heavily propagandised by the regime and would have weighed as or more heavily in the minds of many, even by the 'laws of war' at the time 'retaliation' had some 'legitimacy'.
My argument is not that many though I doubt a majority did not have some limited knowledge or suspicion, but that few knew the full picture or program let alone were in a position to do anything much about it by the time they did come to such a conclusion. For an idea however of the sort of thinking that was common enough then this may interest you, "a poll on London's streets taken by a London newspaper before D-Day, commented upon by two American reporters of the service newspaper Stars and Stripes.
When queried: "If you could press a button and kill every German in the world, would you press it? So many may have thought something along similar lines without serious reflection or intent, especially given the regime's rhetoric and propaganda which however did not generally openly discuss killing , and the total war conditions. Many doubtlessly believed that the 'Jewish-Bolshevik criminals' were a mortal danger that had to be 'ruthlessly combated', but again, serious intent and knowledge re the Holocaust are another matter, requiring serious proof.
Posted by: Steve October 08, at AM. It should also be considered that in Germany itself quite a few Jews were still alive to the end, due to exemptions via intermarriage, or use in forced labor etc, and there would also have been some knowledge and evidence of this, eg work gangs etc. So whilst the regime may have intended to kill them all in the end albeit with limited exceptions such as honorarily 'Aryanized' part Jews with records of loyal service , the average citizen would not necessarily know or even infer this from the available evidence.
I am reading the historian Frank Bajohr's book and will write a separate review. But Bajohr estimates that , Germans were directly involved in the mass killing, while 25 million Germans were aware that the regime was killing Jews on a mass scale. Bajohr writes about the latent "schlechtes Gewissen" bad conscience that so many Germans had after and the constant anxiety concerning expected retribution.
This explains the listless and resigned reaction of so many to Allied firebombing of cities - which W. Sebald wrote about in his book. Posted by: David October 13, at AM. The first figure is within a credible range, the second isn't, again, for all the reasons cited. It would represent the majority of the adult population or close to it, in a situation where zero information on it was disseminated by the regime or media , and there was no means of self education available either eg internet.
It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and to extrapolate from limited individual cases to such a scale is not valid. A smaller percentage of Americans say are aware of many things that are public knowlege and openly broadcast, yet somehow average Germans in were supposed to be aware of state secrets??? Quisling and other Norwegians, who collaborated with the Nazis, were executed as traitors after the war , at least partly due to their involvement in the Holocaust. Also, Sinti and Roma were deported to the Nazi extermination camps, of whom were murdered. On November 28, , Hitler officially received al-Husseini in Berlin.
Hitler made a declaration that after " Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.. The Mufti spent the remainder of the war assisting with the formation of Muslim Waffen SS units in the Balkans and the formation of schools and training centers for imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units. Beginning in , al-Husseini was involved in the organization and recruitment of Bosnian Muslims into several divisions.
The largest of which was the 13th "Handschar" division of 21, men.
Bibliography for GERM Aspects of German History, | University College London
When the Nazis entered the Soviet-occupied Poland in Operation Barbarossa of , a series of massacres of Jews took place in the new German Bezirk Bialystok district, such as in Jedwabne , Radzilow, and Kolno villages. The extent of local collaboration in these massacres is a controversial issue, an so is the pivotal role of the Nazi German Einsatzgruppe Zichenau-Schroettersburg under Hermann Schaper.
Emmanuel Ringelblum wrote that he saw Polish Blue Police participating in beatings of Jews and street rounds up. They [the Polish Blue Police] could not join the Germans in major operations against Jews or Polish resistors, lest they be considered traitors by virtually every Polish onlooker. They were rounded up by German police with the aid of Ukrainian and Baltic collaborators, and the enforced co-operation of the Jewish ghetto police, but very little participation by Polish police mainly in the smaller centres. They were taken to killing centres staffed again by Germans, Ukrainians and Balts.
There also were no Polish SS battalions, though there were SS volunteer battalions from almost all of the Nazi-occupied countries. Attempts to organize Polish SS battalions resulted in immediate, large-scale desertions, and so these attempts were abandoned. The Romanian Antonescu regime was responsible for the deaths of between , and , Jews. An official declaration     by the Romanian government that denied the existence of Holocaust within the country's borders during World War II led in to the creation of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania.
The official report of the Commission released jointly with the Romanian government reads: The Commission concludes, together with the large majority of bona fide researchers in this field, that the Romanian authorities were the main perpetrators of this Holocaust, in both its planning and implementation. This encompasses the systematic deportation and extermination of nearly all the Jews of Bessarabia and Bukovina as well some Jews from other parts of Romania to Transnistria, the mass killings of Romanian and local Jews in Transnistria, the massive execution of Jews during the Iasi pogrom; the systematic discrimination and degradation applied to Romanian Jews during the Antonescu administration — including the expropriation of assets, dismissal from jobs, the forced evacuation from rural areas and concentration in district capitals and camps, and the massive utilization of Jews as forced laborers under the same administration.
Jews were degraded solely on account of their Jewish origin, losing the protection of the state and becoming its victims. A portion of the Roma population of Romania was also subjected to deportation and death in Transnistria.
In cooperation with German Einsatzgruppen and Ukrainian auxiliaries, Romanian troops killed hundreds of thousands of Jews in Bessarabia , northern Bukovina , and Transnistria. Some of the larger massacres included 54, Jews killed in Bogdanovka , a Romanian concentration camp along the Bug River in Transnistria, between 21 and 31 December Romanian troops also massacred Jews in the Domanevka ,  Pechora  and Akhmetchetka concentration camps.
The protests of various public, political and religious figures e. Queen Elena of Romania and Prince Constantin Karadja against the deportation of the Jews from the Romanian Kingdom contributed to the change of policy toward the Jews starting with October Serbia was occupied by Germany in The internal affairs of the Serbian occupied territory were moderated by German racial laws, that were introduced in all occupied territories with immediate effects on Jews, Roma people, as well as imprisonment of left oriented persons.
Of 40, Serbian Jews around one half lost their lives in Nazi concentration camps both in Serbia and the German Reich, where most of the captured Serbian Jews were transferred.
Related Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!: Die Deutschen und die Judenverfolgung 1933-1945 (German Edition)
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